Obama's Fate

The other day I mentioned that I had a nagging skepticism about Obama's electability in the general election, were he to get the nomination, which deserves an explanation.

First, let me just say that anyone who accuses skin color as some part behind the reasoning will find themselves banned--there is zero tolerance for accusations of racism. I don't even view Obama as black or with racial distinction. Identity-wise, I can understand why he's seen as such, but in that regard (and I have two kids with this same beauty), it points to a bright future when such fallacies such as 'race' become historical dust, and racism ceases. One day, let's hope. Having black skin is not totally gone as an electability issue, but it's as negligible as being a woman, a southerner, or a northeasterner. You can ask Harold Ford if you doubt it's still an issue in certain races-- but nevermind, because he would have to say otherwise in public, and I hope one day he will be able to win in Tennessee-- but it no longer is an insurmountable hurdle to being elected President.

The skepticism about Obama's electability isn't grounded in empirical polling (which are too early to matter); instead, it's more just a feeling that, given how well he's positioned his candidacy with the media's blessing, he's setting himself up for being torn down without a partisan base to rely upon for pushing back.

Yes, right now, Obama does pretty well among Republicans & Independents. But there's been more and more of a dissonance growing between Obama's campaign and among progressive partisan Democrats.

Obama has certain strengths, you cannot deny that his brand of personality-based politics has been very effective. I can see, from the point of view of the Obama campaign, why they would rather grow their own movement that's centered around Obama, instead of around a progressive Democratic partisan movement. It allows them a lot more control of their message and campaign actions. It even, I think you could argue given the potential numbers of Obama supporters, become a more organized force locally, but that's unknown. He's got the qualities and the campaign is fully maximizing this advantage in the primary.

And his ability to parlay that into a 'working together' bipartisan  general election campaign has a compelling electability attraction. But the weakness in his campaign, his shunning of a partisan base of Democrats, won't become obvious until it is fatal to those chances. That's the nagging suspicion that arose again when I read through the "liberal views could hurt Obama" piece on Politico.

As a Democrat that just wants to win (and fight the progressive battles once we have a formidable majority), it's very compelling to listen to voter testimonials out of New Hampshire and hear a young conservative voter tell you his favorite's are Obama and Giuliani. It gives us a chance among voters that tend to not give the Democratic Party an opening. But then you listen to that voters number one issues, abortion and taxes, and I question how deep his support for Obama might actually be once the rightwing propoganda machine moves into attack mode.

Obama provides the opening, but through something as simple one of those asinine candidate questionnaire's that we wrote against practicing in CTG, which he answered in '96, it's easy to envision his losing that opportunity.

Obama's campaign answers such questions:

"Do you support capital punishment, criminal prosecution of juveniles as adults, mandatory sentencing?" No

"Do you support state legislation to ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns?" Yes

"Do you support Medicaid funding of abortions, insurance coverage of abortion for state employees." Yes

"Do you support parental notifications for minors seeking abortions, or any other restrictions on abortions." No

Obama's defense, which has become emblematic, is to blame his staff for being cast as a liberal:

A week after Politico provided the questionnaire to the Obama campaign for comment, an aide called Monday night to say that Obama had said he did not fill out the form, and provided a contact for his campaign manager at the time, who said she filled it out. It includes first-person comments such as: "I have not previously been a candidate."

Regardless, the blunt statements of his earlier views, preserved on a questionnaire he filled out for an Illinois voter group that later endorsed him, would allow a Republican opponent to paint him as being way to the left of the nation's electorate on questions that have historically been potent wedge issues.

All have the right answers from the POV of a liberal, but these are all deal-killers among conservatives. Just his positioning on guns puts into very questionable status such states such as West Virginia, Ohio, Missouri, and Pennsylvania, along with the entire southwest/rocky mountain region.

Campaign advisers say that Obama's positions reflect his willingness to remain true to his values, whatever the cost. Obama has argued that he can "change the game" of American politics, and doesn'Obama has distanced himself from partisan Democrats, and has no experience of the hostile and polarized political environment that he'd enter were he to win the nomination. It's not spin to be skeptical of his chances. Obama has distanced himself from partisan Democrats, and has no experience of the hostile and polarized political environment that he'd enter were he to win the nomination. It's not spin to be skeptical of his chances. t need to play by the cautious old rules.

"His views are very much in the mainstream of the Democratic Party," said chief strategist David Axelrod

That's true, and in black and white like this, I question as to how his 'mainstream democratic' viewpoints play out in a general election.

Put more bluntly, Republicans think his high-minded approach to issues could make him a sitting duck as he tries to attract the vast middle that determines American elections.

Bill Burton, press secretary of Obama for America, said Clinton's campaign has been talking increasingly about how Obama would play in November. "That's their spin," he said.

This questionnaire in and of itself is just one thing, but Obama's response to it coming out is unsettling in it's pattern of positioning himself above the partisan fray. Obama has never faced a serious Republican challenge. Not one. Obama has no experience of the hostile and polarized political environment that he'd enter were he to win the nomination, and he has distanced himself from partisan Democrats during his campaign for the nomination. I don't think it's spin to question how Obama might actually do once he confronts Republicans on the campaign trail, instead of across the table in those bipartisan negotiations he longs for making happen.

My guess is that, once he's personally experienced the confrontation of the Republican machine, it would totally transform the way Obama views campaigns. Rather than viewing partisan progressives as something to Sister Soulja while he appeases the non-partisan media machine, he would come to realize the value, in today's partisan environment, of engaging partisan Democrats as part of his campaign. He'd prepare to battle with us, rather than trash us as tokens of the past.

He'd also learn that there is not a middle voter to seduce, that about 95% of this country goes in leaning, and though they might take a glance the other way, they ultimately find a reason, thanks in large part to the Republican propoganda machine, to not go against their initial lean.

It's not spin to be skeptical of Obama's chances. Edwards, who has been through this in 2004, realizes the value of partisan alliance and has positioned himself accordingly, through both message and online tactics. Clinton, who has been through the battles in the 1990's, relishes the chance to go to battle once again, this time with a partisan online movement behind her.

For Democrats that think about how a campaign might position itself best to win, the question really comes down to this: Do you believe that this nation is going to transcend partisan politics in 2008?  

If you believe that's true, and are willing to bet that personality-based politics can rise above partisan-politics, then you are probably betting on Obama's campaign strategy. If you think like me, that a campaign having it's partisan-base in order is the number one priority, than you are in alliance with the campaign strategies of Edwards and Clinton. It's really a question of whether the Democrats are going into battle in 2008 as Obama's personality movement or as a progressive partisan movement.

Update [2007-12-11 15:10:4 by Jerome Armstrong]: LOL, predictably, another pitiful staffer goes under the bus instead of Obama taking responsibility for having changed some positions:
REALITY: As evidence of Obama's "unabashedly liberal positions," the reporter points to a questionnaire that Obama never saw or approved. It was filled out by an aide who has conceded she never got Obama's sign-off. Some of the answers accurately reflect Obama's position. Others do not.
The "aide" was actually the Campaign Manager, writing such first-person comments as: "I have not previously been a candidate."

Update [2007-12-11 15:25:36 by Jerome Armstrong]: Asking, "how will Obama fare against the right-wing hit machine?" Tom Watson suggests "not so well" as one part of the answer - and "not nearly as well as Hillary Clinton," as the second part:

Say what you will about Hillary Clinton, she's been vetted. Fully. Completely. The skeletons aren't in her closet - they're on the front lawn. She's by far the best-known quantity in this race nationally, on either side. Heck, we also know far more about John Edwards, who underwent the full national scrutiny of a campaign in 2004. In some ways, they've been inoculated - you can expose them to the germs, but the disease won't take. Not so, Obama. Politico's piece on Obama is just a hint of what the Republicans would use against him as the Democratic nominee.
Meanwhile, in another poll, John Edwards does the best among all Dems at crushing the Republicans.



Display:


Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 3)

" It's really a question of weather the Democrats are going into battle in 2008 as Obama's personality movement or as a progressive partisan movement."

No, that's simply the way that you've decided to cast his candidacy.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:27:23 PM EST

Another thing I've never understood (none / 0)

is why people are putting all of this value on Hillary Clinton's experience at "winning elections." This argument borders on ridiculous. She won her 2000 election against an unknown Congressman, under-performing Gore's margin in NY by something like 15%. Also, bonus points to you if you remember the name of the guy she ran against in 2006--that election was virtually as unopposed as Obama's in 2004.

There's no denying that Hillary Clinton is a great politician, but I don't see what gives her this "aura of electability" that so many people attribute to her. She doesn't do any better in head-to-head polling that Obama. They're both quite politically adept, as they've proven throughout the campaign. When you look at the numbers, Jerome's argument here just doesn't hold up. At this point, he seems to be grasping at straws he himself is creating.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:05:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another thing I've never understood (none / 0)

As we've seen over the last couple months, Hillary has no more put together an invincible campaign than anyone else has.  They're just as prone to gaffes and poor judgment as the other campaigns.

I think the argument with respect to Hillary is that she's been put through the wringer by the right-wing for 15 years now and she's still politically viable.  Compare, say, John Kerry whose favorables have never recovered from one nasty campaign.  The assumption is that with all the crap that's been flung at Hillary over the years, it's unclear what more the Republicans could possibly have in reserve.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's all fine (none / 0)

I just don't think Jerome's analysis rests on a lot of faulty assumptions and personal biases/sensitivities. Obama is running as the Democratic nominee. If he gets the nomination, he will have the full support of the Democratic and progressive community behind him, as would any other candidate. Just because he isn't running with the Howard Dean 2004/John Edwards 2008 rhetoric doesn't mean everyone in the party who likes that style is just going to decide not to be engaged in the process after he wins. Many of the people who were Dean supporters in the 2004 primary worked just as hard for Kerry during the general.

Also, Kerry's favorability was trashed after he botched that joke during the last few days of the 2006 midterms. Up until that point, he seemed pretty serious about putting together another run.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:31:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

first line was wrong (none / 0)

rather, i do think it rests on faulty assumptions


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: first line was wrong (none / 0)

Yes, Kerry seemed serious, but I don't know anyone who actually thought he stood a chance.  I mean, in Chris Dodd's mind he thought he stood a chance of becoming President (enough so that he moved his family to Iowa) but that doesn't mean he was right and the rest of the world was wrong.

The problem with actively distancing yourself from the progressive base is that you may not get as much energy and enthusiasm as you need from them in the general election, and you may have trouble getting them to go to bat for your policies if you become President.  While I don't foresee some massive Nader movement or what have you, I don't see support for Obama as a binary decision.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: first line was wrong (2.00 / 1)

What i don't understand is the contention that Obama has distanced himself from or angered the progressive base. It's a meme that exists only on MyDD and a few other blogs. A lack of hyper-partisanship doesn't = abandoning progressive issues.


by animated on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:05:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: first line was wrong (none / 0)

As fate would have it, I made the case in great detail in this diary.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:14:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: first line was wrong (2.00 / 2)

Of course - I've seen the case made, often quite cogently, in a handful of posts in the blogosphere. To me, the netroots ambivalence about Obama is understandable - there's a fundamental clash between the partisan bent of the netroots and the conciliary temperament of Obama. If that difference in approach can't be bridged, so be it. But for this to have an impact in the race, it needs to have an effect on the electorate. And it's far from clear to me that Obama is alienating progressives - if anything, I'd wager his supporters at this point are largely those who think Clinton's positions on the war and on foreign policy are too far to the right. There just isn't consistent evidence that Obama won't have the enthusiastic support of leftie activists (vs. Clinton).


by animated on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: first line was wrong (none / 0)

people are misreading obama's message of bipartisanship. he's speaking to something larger than legislative cooperation. he has to address the concerns of people who would worry that he would only be focused on addressing so called black issues. not everybody understands that issues such as living wage, affordable housing and quality education are universial. this message of unity reassures people that he would govern inclusively.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:17:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's all fine (none / 0)

I agree Max (and we share a first name). In fact, I just wrote an extended diary outlining the personal biases that I think Jerome demonstrates in the piece.


by Ozymandias on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:35:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another thing I've never understood (2.00 / 1)

It remains to see how well Hillary stands up to attacks in a presidential campaign against the Republicans. We've seen how she's fared against Obama. In fact, a diary assessing how Hillary would perform in the general would probably be more helpful, considering she's still the prohibitive favorite.

Bill was the main target of Republican attacks during the 90s, and he pulled through because of his charm and personality - traits it's not clear Hillary has. If a candidate comes off as cold and brittle, the media tends to dig their claws in. It's the reason Bush was able to edge out Gore, despite the record of the Clinton years.

And if you don't think her liberal positions offer fodder for them, watch out. Obama may have answered a questionnaire fifteen years ago, but there's a whole library devoted to what happened during the 90s, including plenty of "extreme" statements on things like abortion and gun control just waiting to be rediscovered by the Republicans.


by animated on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:01:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another thing I've never understood (none / 0)

it is all about Media spin.  Clinton has taken hits from all sides and she is still doing fine.  Obama has had nothing but favorable media.  It is not going to be that way in the GE.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:05:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another thing I've never understood (none / 0)

no on would run against her in 06 and she ran rudy out of the race in 00 when the state had a gop gov and state house.

MISS THOSE MINOR DETAILS HUH?


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:51:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Both.  Progressive and personality -- and CHANGE -- with a dash of openness.  We will need all to win in November.


by howardpark on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:28:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

wrong (none / 0)

that is the way Obama has decided to cast his candidacy and he decided it long before he admitted he was running.  See his dkos diaries as proof.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:01:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Maybe Jeromne and I are wrong, but I see it his way as well. These are honest opinions. Jerome did not CHOOSE to cast it that way, he sees it that way.
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:27:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

To go in one cycle from John Kerry, one of the most broadly experienced and qualified nominees in my lifetime- to Obama- who would easily be the least- would be quite a seismic shift, and I just don't see how it could (and I pray it won't) happen.


by NYFM on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:28:57 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Worked well, the last time didn't it?


by dmc2 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

In fact it did, in case you didn't notice Kerry all but won.


by NYFM on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:02:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Now I didn't notice actually, what with all the damage the chimp has done in the three years since. Unfortunately, almost just doesn't get you anywhere in politics.


by dmc2 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

And Lincoln was qualified?  Eisenhower?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:02:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

as a matter of fact both were more qualified than Obama.  However it is not 1860 anymore and it is not even 1950, so your point is rather pointless.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:08:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ARE YOU KIDDING? (none / 0)

we'll leave abe to your fanatsies - but IKE?

Are they drugging you people or something?

tell me - this is the new line from camp obama - please tell me this!!


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:56:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

20 minute post (1.50 / 2)

Wow! Couldn't stand having a pro-Obama diary at the top of the page could you Jerome.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:30:02 PM EST

Re: 20 minute post (2.00 / 1)

Hey why don't you address the substance of the diary , rather than attacking the messenger.

If you don't like the diary , you might as well go into the pro obama diary and live in utopia


When I speak I have a southern drawl.. When you come down here Stop and say hello I'm an American from south of the Mason Dixon line
by lori on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 20 minute post (none / 0)

That presumes that there is "substance" to attack.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:33:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 20 minute post (none / 0)

No, it's a interesting post I just wanted to comment on the timing. Front page articles are usually give some time at the top to collect comments.

It's funny really.


by JoeCoaster on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:56:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 20 minute post (none / 0)

it's a conspiracy no doubt.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 20 minute post (none / 0)

apparently you can feel free to do whatever you want when it's your blog.


www.adamconner7.com
by Adam Conner on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:38:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Good post. It very hard to believe that Obama would get a lot support from indies and moderate Republicans once the GOP has done its thing. More than Clinton, perhaps. Fewer than Edwards, I'd guess.

One thing working in Obama's favor is that the press loves him. That's a fact, something that hasn't been true of a leading Dem since--since when? You suggest. Jerome, that the MSM will turn on him but experience tells us that once the they have a crush a la McCain, they tends to stick with it.


by david mizner on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:31:26 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Actually , No.

The press has thrwon Mccain into the sewer.


When I speak I have a southern drawl.. When you come down here Stop and say hello I'm an American from south of the Mason Dixon line
by lori on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain is FAR from done. (2.00 / 1)

Pray that he is - but understand that he isnt.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:48:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain is FAR from done. (none / 0)

He might be Hillary's nightmare next year....


Obama-Clinton: The New Glory of America
by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:55:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain is FAR from done. (none / 0)


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:22:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain is FAR from done. (none / 0)

he is any dems nightmaire -
all dems nightmare -
my nightmare.
Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Yeah, I think the press still has the Saint's back. Wait till he wins New Hampshire.


by david mizner on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ohmygod (none / 0)

youve been having that nightmare too!


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:25:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ohmygod (none / 0)

The corporatist press will tear Senator 'Hope' to bloody shreds, metaphorically speaking.

He won't even know what hit him.


by Pericles on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:34:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

When we win NH, it'll be over.


by aiko on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:51:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ts comforting to realize (none / 0)

that you guys actually believe what is said on hardball.

you just dont get it at all.

cool!


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Tweety has jumped off the Saint McCain bandwagon .. he's been fawning over Rudy and Frederick of Hollywood


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the press love him because (2.00 / 1)

he is running to them.

He caters to the villages concerns.  From the idea that SS is in "crisis" to telling those horrid teachers unions that merit pay is a fine idea.

His ONLY chance from the start was to get the media machine to root and actively push for him aand AGAINST  his opponents.

Since his major opponent has the lastt name of Clintton it wsnt hard to figure out how tto play tthat card.

Justt reinforce the media's longstanding fude and resentment of all things Clinton.

ndof course as the Daily Howler says, in the media  idea of Clinton Rules" -

rule 1-theres no attack that is out of bounds  if iots on a Clinton {or a Gore}

rule 2 - the Clintons are never allowed ever to defend themselves, without being accused of starting the fight themselves.

The Howler, who says he is now considering Dennis, is with Jerome here  and is very upset with how team obama has gone after Krugman and run their campaign.

Lefty Dems ought to listen to these fellows before we put ourselves in a trap we cant get out of.
-----

By the way, any dem who has ever said we should ban handguns will never get to 1600.

Internal union polling has shown that he would lose heavily with the membership.  


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

I've argued in the past that Obama should use the Democratic primaries to practice the techniques that he would use in a general election against a Republican.  Obama (and other candidates) need to go negative against their current opponents in order to sway me to the opinion that they have what it takes to win against Republicans.

Is going on the offensive against Krugman the type of aggressiveness that you would want to see from Obama if he became the nominee?


Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both
by Anthony de Jesus on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:32:10 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

are you saying you liked his going after krugman? i dont know why quoting krugman's own words is deemed aggressive...


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:59:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 4)

Because I actually read the diary, I will answer the question it poses:

Do you believe that this nation is going to transcend partisan politics in 2008?

No, I do not.  In fact, I believe the divisions are more acute than ever.  And if anyone recalls the results of 2006, one realizes that the American public is clamoring for a partisan Democrat who will actually enact progressive change.  To dismiss the results of 2006 as so much political toxic waste is a grave error.  Indeed, it will alienate a large portion of the electorate that became energized during the 2006 cycle.  Because I desire to avert an electoral disaster, I believe our candidates should marshal this energy, not squander it in the name of a nebulous post-partisan politics.  


by truthteller2007 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:35:24 PM EST

That IS the question (none / 0)

Especially when you consider what the "partisan" fighting is about:
torture vs. no torture
teaching our kids creationism (religious dogma) vs. evolution (real science)
evesdropping on American citizens without warrants vs. enforcing Constitutional "probable cause"
endless incarceration of suspects vs. writ of habeus corpus
and on and on...
Where are the compromises on these issues? The Bush administration has taken this country to political realms that were unheard of just a few years ago, and now we are being told that we have to compromise and accept some of their extremist position? Any candidate running on this platform will not energize the progressive base.
McCain sides with Bush against war veterans
by jeffbinnc on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

first, who is asking us to compromise on such issues as torture? second, kerry didn't exactly energize the progressive base, but he got bigger numbers than i expected he would get. people understood getting rid of bush was more important.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:46:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

First, Obama has stated that he is "against" torture but he hasn't made it a priority in his campaign and he didn't show any leadership in the Senate in trying to close the loopholes in the McCain anti-torture bill. And although he did oppose Mukasey for AG, he came out days after Dodd did, and he didn't lead the filibuster against FISA revison. Dodd did. The primary message of the Obama campaign is to "reach out" to Republicans and find "common ground" to "unite" America. Doesn't this imply concessions to the Republicans on issues that they are most adamant about? John Edwards' primary message is "I will fight for you." Sounds 'bout right to me. Second, this is not 2004. The mood of the progressive-minded electorate is buoyed by the '06 election and the expectations for the candidates are higher.


McCain sides with Bush against war veterans
by jeffbinnc on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 09:05:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

The primary message of the Obama campaign is to "reach out" to Republicans and find "common ground" to "unite" America.

obama has to put out a bipartisanship message because there are people who worry that he would only be concerned and preoccupied with so called black issues at the expense of white folk. not everybody understands that issues such as a living wage and quality education are universal. this unity message sends reassurance to such people that he would govern inclusively.

white candidates aren't burdened with this misconception.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 09:17:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

So what are you saying--that Obama has to operate under some sort of "black man's burden" of not being too confrontational? And what are these "so called black issues"? Are you saying that for any black candidate to be successful, he/she has to present a conciliatory frame for arguments that might raise the hackles of "white folk" (whoever these people are)? I hope that's not what you mean because then that means that in the general election Obama would have a disadvantage of not appearing too confrontational when calling out the republican candidate for presenting an extremist platform.


McCain sides with Bush against war veterans
by jeffbinnc on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:56:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

anybody who had heard his jefferson jackson speech wouldn't accuse him of being afraid of being confrontational.

some highlights from that speech :

-i am in this race to tell the corporate lobbyists that their days of setting the agenda in washington are over. i have done more that any other candidate in this race to take on the lobbyists and i have won. [a reference to his ethics reform bill he got passed] they have not funded my campaign, they will not work in my whitehouse and they will not drown out the voices of the american people when i am president.

-i am in this race to take those tax breaks from the companies moving jobs overseas. and put them back in the pockets of the hardworking americans who deserve it.

-i am running for president because i am sick and tired of democrats thinking the only way to look tough on national security is by talking and acting and voting like george bush republicans.

-when i am this party's nominee, my opponent wont be able to say i voted for the war in iraq. or that i gave george bush the benefit of a doubt on iran. or that i support bush/cheney policy of not talking to leaders that we don't like. and he will not be able to say that i waivered on something as fundamental on whether or not it is ok for america to torture - because it is never ok. that's why i'm in it.

-as president i will end the war in iraq. we will have our troops home in 16 months. i will close guantanamo, i will restore habeas corpus, i will finish the fight against al qaeda. and i will lead the world to combat the common threats of the 21st century. nuclear weapons and terrorism. climate change and poverty. genocide and disease.

-and i will send, i will send once more a message, to those yearning faces beyond our shores, that says: you matter to us. your future is our future, and our moment is now. america, our moment is now. our moment is now.

[...]

-and if those republicans come at me with the same fear-mongering and swift boating that they usually do, then i will take them head on. because i believe the american people are tired of fear and tired of disctraction and tired of diversions. we can make this election not about fear but about the future. and that wont just be a democratic victory, that will be an american victory. and that is a victory that america needs right now.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tydfsfSQiYc

a transcript doesn't do justice to the fire in his voice.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:19:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

This hardly clarifies your argument that Obama must present a platform of unity to a "white folk" audience (guess there weren't any of them at the Jefferson-Jackson Dinner) who may have antipathy to progressive issues (whichBTW is pretty debatable because right now many progressive issues actually score highly favorable in polls). The way that Obama has framed Social Security (that it's in crisis) and Universal Health Care (that it doesn't need to be universal) gives too much away to the other side. A candidate who promises to "fight" for progressive causes (as Edwards does) presents a clearer message to the electorate, which as evidenced by the '06 election, is ready for it.


McCain sides with Bush against war veterans
by jeffbinnc on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 12:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

A candidate who promises to "fight" for progressive causes (as Edwards does) presents a clearer message to the electorate, which as evidenced by the '06 election, is ready for it.

his voting record doesn't show him as a progressive. not only did he voted for the bankruptcy bill, he voted down a wellstone amendment that would have excused medical expenses. the main reason people are driven to bankruptcy is because of medical emergencies.

when on an abc interview, edwards was faced with the litany of votes that he had cast as senator. when asked to accounted why he supported such issues then (such as the bankruptcy bill, patriot act, nclb, all the free trade deals, etc) but is running against now - edwards was unable to explain the shift. how did he go from DLC darling (bruce reed endorsed him early in o3) to rebel populist ? that's quite a transformation, from one end of the spectrum to the other. and he's unable to explain why.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 12:37:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

I did not see the interview you refer to but many of the policy decisions you bring up were pushed through by Democratic leaders who Edwards now concedes that he was too conciliatory with. NAFTA and the bankruptcy legislation were conceived under the direction of the Clinton administration, and NCLB and the Patriot Act had strong Democratic support. What Edwards didn't fully comprehend--and indeed most Americans didn't either, as these all enjoyed popular support--is how lobbyists and influencers behind these policies "stacked the deck" in their favor to write in terms, conditions, and loop-holes that benefit their interests over ordinary Americans. Furthermore, much of what Edwards stands for now has always been a cornerstone of his previous campaigns. He has always championed minimum wage, patients bill of rights, family leave, unionization of workers, and many other progressive platforms. His "two Americas" stump speech is nothing "new". While I agree that a candidate's record of voting on past legislation is important, it has to be balanced  with how the candidate stands on the issues NOW. Regarding NAFTA, Obama just voted for the Peru trade agreement, another NAFTA-type policy that Edwards spoke out against.  


McCain sides with Bush against war veterans
by jeffbinnc on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 02:19:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

just to be clear, nafta was before edwards time.

obama didn't vote for the peru deal. neither did hillary.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 04:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

You brought NAFTA into the argument. I'm just saying that it was supported by Dem leadership. I may not have been technically correct about Obama's vote for Peru free trade, but he did "support" it, which in this case amounted to a vote for it:
"Among the Democratic senators running for president -- all of whom missed the vote to attend a debate in Iowa -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois have supported the agreement, while Sen. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware have opposed it. Former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards has also opposed it."
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-pe ru5dec05,1,7097390.story
McCain sides with Bush against war veterans
by jeffbinnc on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 04:55:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

NAFTA and the bankruptcy legislation were conceived under the direction of the Clinton administration

clinton vetoed one version of the bankruptcy bill. said it was too hard on debtors. edwards voted for it anyways.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 04:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

My own Rep, a liberal Dem named David Price, worked "with the Clinton administration" to write the bankruptcy bill. Sorry I can't give you a link. He told me this in an airport lounge after I asked him about why he supported the bill. He felt the bill would in the long run benefit debtors. I'm not sure how he feels about it now.


McCain sides with Bush against war veterans
by jeffbinnc on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 04:59:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

Doesn't this imply concessions to the Republicans on issues that they are most adamant about?

no it doesn't. obama worked with dick lugar to pass a nuclear non-proliferation bill. is that something you oppose?

obama is now working with coburn to pass a transparency in government spending bill. is that something you oppose?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 09:36:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That IS the question (none / 0)

No and no. But these issues are not at the top of most people's concerns right now (although I agree that they are important and I commend Obama for his leadership on them). We'll see how far they get in this Congress.


McCain sides with Bush against war veterans
by jeffbinnc on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:59:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

"Edwards, who has been through this in 2004, realizes the value of partisan alliance and has positioned himself accordingly, through both message and online tactics."

yeah, its working really well for him...


by cwreno2001 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:36:18 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

how can you run for 2 seasons straight in one state and not be the leading contender? what does that say about edwards?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:50:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

So first Obama is attacked because he's not progressive enough, and now he's being attacked because is too progressive.

Sorry Obama doesn't speak the language of the blogosphere. And why should he? Normal people with real lives are connecting with him. He can afford to leave you people behind.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:39:07 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 2)

Okay, so not everyone who runs the site is an Obama supporter: I stand corrected.  This was a great piece because it underscores that Obama is really an "accidental" senator in that his primary and general election opponents in 2004 were both scandal-laced, and even in his state senate district he never really faced significant Republican opposition.  Clinton is ready to "go to war."  I'm not knocking Obama because he's black.  I'm black.  And I don't think Jerome is racist, but the "you will be banned" comment went a little far!  The only thing I can say is that liberalism of Obama's type is best when it is tempered with down-home authenticity, toughness and religiosity in the manner of Carter.  Carter wasn't a movement.  He was a visionary whom people trusted.  The electorate is different from the American public.  The electorate is conservative.  The American public is liberal.  The electorate only votes for those they know they can trust.  When Obama says that he wants to take away people's guns and appreciates when teenagers get pregnant and get an abortion with no one finding out, the electorate will place their trust elsewhere with the quickness.


Obama-Clinton: The New Glory of America
by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:39:29 PM EST

Carter (none / 0)

That's who Obama reminds me of, and that's what worries me even more than the electability question. Will he govern like Carter? Carter was an ineffective one-term president. His policies were mostly middle-of-the road or Republican-lite. For example he deregulated the airlines. And we know what a mess that has turned out to be.

I don't believe that Obama has the political skills to deal with Congress, fight the GOP to get bills passed, get his nominees confirmed, etc. I also worry about how much energy and expertise he will be able to marshal to drive much needed change in many areas - the mess at DOJ, the environment & energy policy, health care, labor and education.

He does strike me as an "above the fray" Adlai Stevenson-type character who really won't be able to get much done as president if he gets that far.

Edwards strikes me as someone "on a mission". He's got energy and the drive to push meaningful legislation through. Can he put together a political team that can handle Congress? I'm not sure, but I think he'd do better than Obama.

My candidate is Clinton. She has read drive and determination and knows how government works in nitty-gritty detail. She wants to enact universal health care. I'm not sure she can manage to get it passed, but she strikes me as the one most likely to really make it happen--with the ability to twist arms to get stuff passed.

I hope the progressive left has learned from the last decade or two that we have to stick by ANY Democratic president, whether he or she is "our guy" or not, and fight against the GOP smear machine that wants to block Democratic success by any and all means.


by Coral on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:46:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carter (none / 0)

I don't believe that Obama has the political skills to deal with Congress, fight the GOP to get bills passed,

you didn't hear michelle obama describe how obama was able to get things passed in the contentious chicago state senate while his party was in the minority.

obama has worked with dick lugar before getting legislation passed. a nuclear non-proliferation bill. he just teamed up with coburn to work on a transparency-in-government spending bill.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:07:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carter (none / 0)

i can give you more examples if you'd like.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:09:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

people are worried about losing their homes and you're hung up on a how-many-years-old? gun question. we don't even know if that's still his position today.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:56:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (2.00 / 1)

So what is it?

Basically, even if Obama was sufficiently progressive for you people, his past views will doom him, because they're too progressive?

Gimme a break.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:40:42 PM EST

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

I don't know what other people think, but from my point of view he is neither sufficiently progressive nor too progressive. Some of his rhetoric is progressive but his policy instincts are moderate to conservative. So he is the worst of both worlds, easily attacked rhetoric and policy positions not worth defending.


by souvarine on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

A pragmatic progressive?  Oxymoron for lunch anyone?


Obama-Clinton: The New Glory of America
by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:02:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Clinton supported the war with her AUF VOtE

Was that progressive.

She is now against gibing Driver's licenses to il-legal immigrants before she was for it. Was that progressive?

She voted for the KYLE/lIEBERMAN AMMENDMENT. wAS THAT PROGRESSIVE?


by BDM on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:26:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

Nope....

And neither was Obama's vote to extend CAFTA to Peru nor....

His vote to reauthorize the Patriot Act.

Besides, this post isn't about Hillary it's about Lieberman's protege:

Senator 'Hope'.


by Pericles on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:39:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

So one Senator voted to go to war with another country and another voted to trade with another country, and these are supposed to be cancelling out nonprogressive votes!?  All I can say is that being progressive has a different meaning for you than it does for me, Pericles.


by Counterfactual on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:48:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

he didn't vote for the peru deal. neighter did hillary.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:12:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

this is a very good post (none / 0)

Jerome, I really appreciate it when you lay out the reasons you are skeptical in a complete post like this.  The other stuff comes out as totally disproportionate to the supposed offense, so it seems personal.  

I do hope Obama and his campaign thinks carefully about these issues, because I know we all want to win in November.


John McCain is a Bush ally on Social Security.
by John DE on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:41:34 PM EST

Re: this is a very good post (none / 0)

Is someone who points out that Obama will have a tough time getting elected because of bigotry in America get banned as well?


by Boilermaker on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:42:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well (none / 0)

My rule of thumb is that if you insult the owner or operator of a website enough you shouldn't be surprised if you get banned.  

Anyway, we Obama supporters are doing just fine on dailykos.  I don't mind if Jerome has concerns, it would be irrational to think everyone in the country would think Obama is the best choice, and certainly I have to admit that those who criticized him have been right at times.  


John McCain is a Bush ally on Social Security.
by John DE on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:04:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

Obama supporters do well at Daily Kos, as they have banned everyone who supports a different candidate.  


by truthteller2007 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:06:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

How about a mass exodus  of Obama-supporters elsewhere? No reason to hold down the fort here. Pretty soon, this place will resemble Taylor Marsh's site.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

Yes, go to Daily Kos, where Obama supporters ban anyone who attempts to engage them with evidence.


by truthteller2007 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

Where shall we go?


by aiko on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

I don't know. Its all so weird.

Will this be like this even after Obama is the candidate? Will "Truth"Teller still have the same tagline? Will these guys all leave and come back with new names?

We're so close to the primaries which is the real fun for political junkies that I'll probably stick around. I will probably get banned soon though..


Slash and burn politics baby! Say anything do anything lie cheat steal railroad the opposition into submission: CLINTON FORMULA FOR 2008.
by crackityjones on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:23:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

How about here where the feces-flinging Obama supporters  belong: on the very deepest level of Hades

As a survivor of being multiple troll rated at OrangeLand by such I feel confident that unless Jerome wakes up and takes charge here the same thing will happen.

My momma used to always say you can judge a person by who they associate with. Obama's attempts to distance himself from his own staff won't work and neither will his cultists attempt to troll rate into oblivion anyone who disagrees with his stated 'policies'.

The very fact that they'd try speaks to their commitment to American values of free speech much less giving the lie absolute to Senator Hope's 'progressiveness'.


by Pericles on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:48:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well (none / 0)

feeling desperate much? depressed? ill? it will be over soon--very soon--you will be ok. everything is going to be ok.


by aiko on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:54:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope you don't do anything rash (none / 0)

when Obama doesn't win the nomination.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:23:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope you don't do anything rash (none / 0)

我要杀你! !


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:18:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope you don't do anything rash (none / 0)

what happens at a contested convention?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:17:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: this is a very good post (none / 0)

let's see how obama does in iowa first before you start waving your bigotry flag.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:15:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Netroots Fate (none / 0)

Clinton has her partisan base in order?

Which candidate between Obama and Clinton do you think will be more hospitable to the netroots?  With Obama, you will have a seat at the table and if your argument is good enough, it will prevail.  With Clinton, you will have nothing.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:42:21 PM EST

Unions representing close (none / 0)

to Five million American workers now support Hillary.

THAT is our party's "Base".

How many national unions support Obama?

zero


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:52:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unions representing close (none / 0)

That would be Zero.


by Pericles on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:49:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Netroots Fate (none / 0)

that is all such happy horseshit.  I am sorry you believe it.  Obama doesn't care what you think.  Go read his dkos diaries, he is the kind of guy who tells people what they should think and how they should talk.  


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:26:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Netroots Fate (2.00 / 0)

that is all such happy horseshit.  I am sorry you believe it.  Obama doesn't care what you think.  Go read his dkos diaries, he is the kind of guy who tells people what they should think and how they should talk.  


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:27:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Netroots Fate (none / 0)

aint that the truth. the woman has control issues.


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:19:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He needs me more than I need him (none / 0)

Like a lot of people, I was inspired by Obama's 2004 keynote at the convention.  My kids like him, and I really wanted to like him.

But he lost me by repeatedly saying and doing things that attack me, as a progressive Democrat.  Why would I want to support or even defend somebody who won't support or defend me?

He may think triangulating will win him the election.  I doubt it.  And even if it wins the presidency, Bill C showed us that it's a recipe for minority status in Congress.

I don't even know whether Obama understands the kind of defending he'll need if he's the nominee.  I fear he will never know what hit him once the Rove and Norquist and Limbaugh and Robertson people get started.  If he thinks they'll make nice just because he's made nice, he hasn't been paying attention for the last 20 years.  He'll get shredded and so will we.


by DFLer on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:42:48 PM EST

Re: He needs me more than I need him (none / 0)

They said the same thing about Kennedy in 1960

In 1060 THE Clinton supporter's here would have supported eITHER hUMPHREY OR jOHNSON.

wHO would have lost to Nixon in 1960


by BDM on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He needs me more than I need him (none / 0)

hell yes I would have supported LBJ and HHH


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He needs me more than I need him (none / 0)

But why did we win in 1960?  Ironically enough, the Chicago machine!


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 02:41:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He needs me more than I need him (none / 0)

how did he attack you?


I really don't understand how that is an attack; lol. ~ by Jerome Armstrong
by jello on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:22:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Fate (none / 0)

So let me get this straight.  Someone can slyly argue that race prevents Obama from succeeding (which is the definition of racism), but to challenge the assertion is prohibited?  That's censorship and totalitarianism and it doesn't make a difference that you consider yourself liberal or that you like black babies.

This is precisely why middle america distrusts so-called liberals.  Because they are just as full of sh*t as everyone else, but holier than thou about it.